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Post by Toni on Jul 10, 2014 18:43:29 GMT
Eliste, I LOVE having you here and love it when you give us that information. That is exactly what I tell people! You definitely don't kill threads.
On the same token, what do you guys think of paper and pencil artists that sell prints of other characters? It is what the general population wants, clamors for, and pays high dollar for, but should it be allowed?
Some conventions like Otakon take an approach to quash it by saying "80% of your table must be original art". But that hurts those of us that are crafters and don't have the same exact medium as the original.
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eliste
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Post by eliste on Jul 11, 2014 13:11:14 GMT
On the same token, what do you guys think of paper and pencil artists that sell prints of other characters? It is what the general population wants, clamors for, and pays high dollar for, but should it be allowed? Some conventions like Otakon take an approach to quash it by saying "80% of your table must be original art". But that hurts those of us that are crafters and don't have the same exact medium as the original. Pen and paper copying bothers me most. I don't buy that kind of artwork as I'd rather just purchase it from the orignators usually. If you're going to be an artist, find your own voice! I think transformative works into new mediums are much more interesting, and I'm more willing to buy those. I guess there has to be a balance, but its difficult to say where that balance should be.
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eliste
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Post by eliste on Jul 24, 2014 13:49:15 GMT
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Nicole
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Post by Nicole on Jul 25, 2014 21:10:59 GMT
Weighing in on the traditional medium art, I would remiss to call it just copying. Speaking as someone who went to school for that field, it's easy to tell when a person has just copied existing art, when they've created an interpretation of the character(s), or (as is most common) when they create simple head shots/poses to make a quick piece. It's unfair to just lump all of those together as just 'copying' though, when some of them are really trying to say something with their art, and put just as much effort into their work as 'crafters' do. People that are expressing something with their traditional art I have no problem buying from, as they often have pieces that are fun or exciting they wanted to express with the character(s) that you likely won't find coming from the source studios. Other times it's that the artist has a very distinct style that is widely different from the source material (ie: realism vs. animation), and that can certainly appeal to fans who already see their shows as a source of escapism -as we all do- and can have it that much closer to being real for them. Pieces like those examples are typically what fans are looking for, which is why they tend to be so popular. They'll take the standard poses ones if the artist has put some effort into their style, but from what I've seen and heard they aren't preferred. As a patron of Otakon dealer's room for several years, I'm familiar with the offerings and not found much -if any- original art from the creators (outside of actual animation cells) that I really wanted to frame or buy. So if you can, great! I'm just saying I can see the appeal from the other side. It's also why I make what I do. In a sea of keychains, pvc models, buttons, pins, and stickers, there was never anything that really demanded I collect or buy them. Those dealers, however, are feeling the pressure on their own sales as artist are only limited by their imagination when it comes to what they can sell, as opposed to what a manufacturer has/can create. As a result, several anime cons have had to impose these restrictions on their artist alleys to appease the dealers/vendors. Is it fair? Not necessarily, but then again when have large companies ever treated individual/small businesses fairly? They know they have legality on their side for a majority of the work people make, and they aren't afraid to put the fear into those artists so they won't have the competition. The requirement of having original art on the table for cons is something that honestly won't bother many passionate artists. They often times don't want to draw 'fanart' for the rest of their lives at cons, but it's a crossover with what they are passionate about, and drawing fanart is how 90% of them will have started learning to draw. So the true artists will use their fan works to pull you in, and then try and sell you on their original projects like, webcomics, manga, books, etc. My sister in law made cosplay wigs, but she was also an artist for a major US manga company and would sell those books as well as id badges that she designed templates for (ie: Master Gamer, Dom, Sub, Magical Girl, etc.) and would do quick drawings of the con goer on the badge. I even worked at her table one year. Where does that leave the artisans though. We create art, so we should be in the artist alley, but, the majority of our art is all derivative of some preexisting source material and we don't have a 'brand' we are trying to sell that's original. Paper and ink are cheap, and most other mediums are not, so the artisan cannot take the risk of hoping the con goer will enjoy the original ip they've developed cause if they don't, they're out hundreds of dollars instead of a maybe just a hundred that the traditional artist is. This of course leaves the artisan with the dealers room/booth, where the costs are higher, but they have no restrictions. Personally, I agree that there is no happy medium right now, and I'm not sure what it could be. Artisans want the best of both worlds as they fall between the 2 classifications, but anime cons just don't function that way, and they have no reason to change. *cringes* sorry this turned out so wordy and meandering. It wasn't when I decided I wanted to comment, lol Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter.
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eliste
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Post by eliste on Sept 1, 2014 10:21:14 GMT
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Yurtle
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Post by Yurtle on Sept 1, 2014 13:00:46 GMT
I think that's the same video that was posted in the first post.
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eliste
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Post by eliste on Sept 1, 2014 13:24:55 GMT
You're probably right. Lol. Apologies. It came through my copyright feed today for some reason.
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Post by Toni on Jan 2, 2015 18:35:36 GMT
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Post by Lexxi on Jan 3, 2015 5:15:42 GMT
That's a great link. I'm really glad the judges ruled that way. I thought the idea that the fabric companies could limit how you use the fabric seemed crazy but people insisted and would show links where the manufacturers say you can't sell stuff from their fabric (which isn't a definitive ruling, but does give credence to their point). Thanks for sharing - great read!
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eliste
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Post by eliste on Jan 3, 2015 6:10:30 GMT
Sadly, they don't have the best explanation of the cases.
Precious Moments hangs on whether it is a derivative work, not originality as they say on that site. The derivative work issue is thorny and depends on if there is a "creative spark". I think it's a bad case to have as precedent as there are definitely times when making fabric items out of fabric will have that and therefore qualify as derivative and therefore infringe.
Their discussion of the second case is completely misleading as the copyright issue was about the removal of the copyright notice, not the continued use of the name/image. The removal of copyright notice had been taken off the books previously so wasn't a crime. It should be noted that case the person using the licensed fabric actually FAILED and was prevented from continuing.
However, ignoring that site's bad reporting of those cases, the first sale doctrine (also known as exhaustion) does still apply and is your best defense in this case- not copyright defenses.
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Post by Toni on Jan 4, 2015 16:05:52 GMT
Thanks Eliste. Are there any examples of the first sale doctrine I could use if I decide to post my pillows on Etsy or my site for sale and can quote if I get a cease and desist letter?
Also, would you recommend the wording they suggest on my site that would help alleviate legal responsibility?
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eliste
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Post by eliste on Jan 7, 2015 0:08:38 GMT
Are you talking about the disclaimer about not being affiliated with Disney? It's a good idea, but I personally don't give legal advice. It can't hurt, certainly and helps prove that the customer should not be confused into thinking it's official, however that doesn't really guarantee anything. It will depend a lot on the item, the fabric line, and the company with the IP.
I'm not going to get into the first sale issue right now as on the phone and in the wrong country.
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eliste
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Post by eliste on Feb 5, 2015 13:11:17 GMT
So, the UK IPO (intellectual property office) has posted a thing about copyright in knitting and sewing patterns. It's quite good, actually, and explains a lot of common misconceptions in words that are easy to understand. It doesn't deal with licensed fabrics or fan art specifically, but it does make some references to them and is a solid knowledge base. I know most folks here aren't UK based, but if you sell at over the Internet to the UK, this could still apply. Many of the principles are the same between the U.S. and UK as well. I highly recommend checking it out: www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/399646/Copyright_Notice_4-2015.pdf
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Post by Toni on Feb 5, 2015 15:05:56 GMT
I think this part is especially important: It is important to note, however, that in most cases if you have lawfully acquired a pattern (for example, bought it, received it as a gift or lawfully accessed it online) you will have either an express or implied permission to make the item, as long as the creator of the pattern had permission to use any copyright works within it. This means that if you purchase a pattern you have the right to make the item as long as the person that made the pattern had permission to use the copyright works. This is why I know I can't make patterns of my quilts and sell them. I don't have express permission to use the copyrighted images so once I create a pattern it implies that I have that permission. It is also important for people to understand that if they buy a pattern, they need to make sure the person they bought it from has that permission. At least that is what I understood.
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eliste
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Post by eliste on Feb 5, 2015 15:32:32 GMT
Yup, you understood well, I think. There are complications that can invalidate what's in this, but it seemed like a good addition to the discussion.
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